A Complete Waste of Space

Reservoir_Dog wrote:Daniel is a good start. Not to many people pay attention to the Old Testament any more.How does Daniel 7:25 give you the idea that the hierarchy of the Catholic Church is anti Christ? Keep in mind what Daniel is talking about in the second half of his book. The apocalypse. The end of times.How does Daniel 7:25 differ from John 1:7? And how can either one be considered to be anti Christ? Also from Daniel: "The great nations of the world have risen against Yahweh; but God's Kingdom shall overthrow existing powers and last forever" How is that anti Christ?

First we need to start with Daniel 2, it gives us a basic prophetic timeline from Babylon to the second coming of Christ.
The image in King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream is all the major kingdoms from then untill now. The Babylonian Empire of Nebuchadnezzar (605 B.C. to 538 B.C.) was the GOLD head over thrown by the SILVER arms and chest of the joint empire of the Medes and the Persians (538 B.C. to 331 B.C.). The Medes and the Persians (331 B.C. to 168 B.C.), were conquered by the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great, belly and thighs of BRONZE. Represented by IRON legs is the Roman Empire, Daniel 2:41-43 says, “Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom.”
The ten toes of the Image, represents the ten kingdoms into which Rome was divided when barbarian tribes carved up the empire. Anglo-Saxons-England, Lombards-Italy, Heruli-Destroyed, Alamanni- Germany, Suevi-Portugal, Vandals-Destroyed, Burgundians-Switzerland, Visigoths-Spain, Ostrogoths- Destroyed and the Franks-France.
Daniel 2 informs us the fourth kingdom is the legs and feet of IRON with ten toes (divided Europe) and Daniel 7 says the fourth beast has IRON teeth and ten horns (divided Europe). The beasts of Daniel 7 fall in line with Daniel 2.
Now that the Kingdoms have been established let’s look at the last one.
Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Location: out of 4th beast and among the ten horns (v.8) - The Papacy arose out of Rome among the ten tribal divisions of Rome
Timing: after the ten were established (v.8) - the Papacy became a political power by decree of the Roman emperor Justinian in AD 538 which was after the emergence of the ten tribal divisions that emerged as the Roman Empire fell apart in AD 476.
Uprooted three of the ten horns (v.8) - As the Papacy came to prominence, it influenced Pagan Roman armies to destroy three of the tribes which opposed its Christian doctrines. These three were the Vandals, Ostrogoths, and Heruli. The last of these was destroyed in AD 538 when Justinian’s decree went into effect.
Eyes and mouth of a man (v.8) - the Papacy has a man as its visible head.
Persecutes the saints (v.21, 25) - Ever hear of the Papal persecution during the dark ages - Inquisition, etc. More than 50 million Protestant Christians tortured and killed by the Catholic Church.
Different from the other ten horns (v.24) - the Papacy was a religio-political entity different from the kingdoms before it.
Speak out against God (v.8, 11, 20, 25) - Verse 8 says it will utter boastful or blasphemous things. One quote of many like it from Prompta Bibliothea Canonica Juridicia Moralis Theologica appearing in the Catholic Encyclopedia Volume VI, pp. 25-29, “The Pope is of so great dignity, and so exalted, that he is not a mere man, but as it were, God and the Vicar of God. The Pope is, as it were, God on earth, chief king of kings, having plentitude of power.”
Little Horn attempts to change God’s times and laws (v.25) - The Papacy deleted the second commandment of the Decalogue on idolatry, changed the Sabbath to Sunday in favour of sun worship and divided the tenth commandment on coveting into two parts to get back to Ten Commandments.
Have power for a time, times, and half a time (or three and a half years, forty two months, or 1260 days - see Revelation 12:6, 14) (v.25) - Applying the prophetic day for year principle established in Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6 that equals 1260 years. The Papacy lasted in primary power from AD 538 to 1798 in which Napoleon’s general Berthier marched into Rome, deposed the Pope, and carried him into exile where he died.

proving, once again, the utterly man-made nature of religion. Geez, DH, is every church that celebrates on Sunday 'anti-christ'? The only ones that don't to my knowledge are Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses, both clearly doomsday cults that attract the dimwitted, in my experience. Although I know that is judgemental, all I have to go upon are the folks who've tried to sell those cults to me. Christ himself had a very simple message. It wasn't about doomsday, it wasn't about judging one's fellow believers. It wasn't about parsing Old Testament law. It was about love and kindness to all you encounter. Period.
He wasn't too impressed with wealth-gathering, either, but that wasnt a core message.

Darkhorse wrote:First we need to start with Daniel 2, it gives us a basic prophetic timeline from Babylon to the second coming of Christ.

hogwash....I'll elaborate later.

The image in King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream is all the major kingdoms from then untill now. The Babylonian Empire of Nebuchadnezzar (605 B.C. to 538 B.C.) was the GOLD head over thrown by the SILVER arms and chest of the joint empire of the Medes and the Persians (538 B.C. to 331 B.C.). The Medes and the Persians (331 B.C. to 168 B.C.), were conquered by the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great, belly and thighs of BRONZE. Represented by IRON legs is the Roman Empire, Daniel 2:41-43 says, “Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom.”

please, attempt to explain any of this as anything other that humans looking for prophesy in words written for other purposes. Sort of like loons attribute great vision to Nostradamus.

The ten toes of the Image, represents the ten kingdoms into which Rome was divided when barbarian tribes carved up the empire. Anglo-Saxons-England, Lombards-Italy, Heruli-Destroyed, Alamanni- Germany, Suevi-Portugal, Vandals-Destroyed, Burgundians-Switzerland, Visigoths-Spain, Ostrogoths- Destroyed and the Franks-France.
Daniel 2 informs us the fourth kingdom is the legs and feet of IRON with ten toes (divided Europe) and Daniel 7 says the fourth beast has IRON teeth and ten horns (divided Europe). The beasts of Daniel 7 fall in line with Daniel 2.
Now that the Kingdoms have been established let’s look at the last one.

ESTABLISHED? More like made up, with little regard to any 'kingdoms' or peoples outside Europe. Which didn't exist at the time it was written, and for which Judeaic religion was an unknown when it was written.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Location: out of 4th beast and among the ten horns (v.8) - The Papacy arose out of Rome among the ten tribal divisions of Rome
Timing: after the ten were established (v.8) - the Papacy became a political power by decree of the Roman emperor Justinian in AD 538 which was after the emergence of the ten tribal divisions that emerged as the Roman Empire fell apart in AD 476.
Uprooted three of the ten horns (v.8) - As the Papacy came to prominence, it influenced Pagan Roman armies to destroy three of the tribes which opposed its Christian doctrines. These three were the Vandals, Ostrogoths, and Heruli. The last of these was destroyed in AD 538 when Justinian’s decree went into effect.
Eyes and mouth of a man (v.8) - the Papacy has a man as its visible head.

more lucid stuff has emerged from Native Americans taking peyote.

Persecutes the saints (v.21, 25) - Ever hear of the Papal persecution during the dark ages - Inquisition, etc. More than 50 million Protestant Christians tortured and killed by the Catholic Church.

may wish to double check your numbers. There weren't 50 million people in Europe during the dark ages, let alone Protestants.
edit: please read the linked data. There weren't TEN million people in Europe by 1600.http://www.medievalages.net/2013/10/med ... emography/

I'd continue, but my brain hurts from this hogwash. The core theological difference between Catholics/Orthodox faiths and Protestants is the matter of human intercession with God. Protestants believe in direct communication between man and God. The older versions(Catholic and Orthodox) promote a hierarchy of intercession(priests, popes/prelates). That's it. They attempt to communicate the same message otherwise. Now, there are fringe groups within all of the three major branches, and Protestants divide rather sharply around pre-determination ever since Calvin. Still, my core point remains: most of this stuff you cite is man made interpretation of serially translated ancient writings. Especially when you all talk of end times.

frankly this makes a LOT more sense, and is far more likely true that trying to pin things to legs and horns of imaginary dream-beasts. Just sayin'
http://higherperspective.com/2014/05/ha ... verse.html

final note, to DH(and Res, if you wish to address it from your perspective).

Where, I ask you, did Jesus tell his followers, or those in public sermons to:
1.write your opinions and observations of Me down, and declare them Holy
2.write down your odd visions, too. They also can be declared Holy.
3. be sure to memorize the Holy Books, that is important. Sure, I just said to believe in me and glorify God, but I really meant to
memorize a lot of archaic words and try to figure out hidden messages.
4 DO ANYTHING OTHER than love one another, believe in him, and take care of your fellow man.

sometimes, when I wish to amuse myself, the charlatrans selling the end-times snake oil can be seen on TV(usually asking for money, which apparently is key
to maintaining clarity of vision). They simply look foolish, and those buying into the BS even more so. Prophesy is virtually ALWAYS a man-made crock of shit, which when tested fails. Like that loon who declared three different end times, all wrong. Listening to the average Biblical Prophesy of End Times debate is sort of like hearing someone rationalize their backing of a longshot at the racetrack, except that people actually run their lives under the assumption this nonsense has merit.

callmeslick wrote:Geez, DH, is every church that celebrates on Sunday 'anti-christ'?

No, just the one that changed the law.

Which didn't exist at the time it was written,

What do you think prophecy is?

and for which Judeaic religion was an unknown when it was written.

Daniel was taken as a slave when Judah was sacked by the Babylon empire, so yes it was!

no, I meant that Europe knew nothing of Judaic religion at the time of writing, not Daniel.
this whole 'debate' shows how utterly ludicrous religion becomes. Next we'll be discussing angels on the heads of pins! Jesus' message was very simple, and did not involve anything about making predictions about his second coming(in John, as I recall, he sort of told the disciples to just not worry about it, to just go about their lives). It did not quibble over the Sabbath day(which varies simply due to time difference across the globe), but focused more on the worship every day part, it seems to me. He did not urge folks to badmouth those who believe differently, not did he even suggest that such people would even not make it heaven, if one reads it a certain way. And 'reading it a certain way' is the whole issue. So much of what passes for 'Christianity' from all sects is a matter of humans reading into a very simple message very complex things, most of which simply comfort their preconceptions, or reassure them that their way of acting will ensure life eternal. Personally, I'm pretty sure we're all ending up in the dirt and embarking on a few million years of recycling. Each to their own.

may wish to double check your numbers. There weren't 50 million people in Europe during the dark ages, let alone Protestants.
edit: please read the linked data. There weren't TEN million people in Europe by 1600

Check yours, the Roman Empire had over 50 million at the start of it's decline and the time pioried I am refurring is from AD 538 to 1798. The number I quoted includes Jews and other non Catholics.

the Roman empire was decimated by the Plague before Protestantism was created. It limped along with under 10 million for a few centuries. Now, I see you wish to stretch the 'middle ages' to 300 years after the Renaissance, which is a bit odd. Even then, the idea of that many Protestant deaths is laughably inaccurate. And, I say this as a direct descendant of a Baptist who left England at age 13 due to Catholic oppression in the mid 1600's, so I'm not saying that the Catholics didn't ride hard on them. Likewise, once they came to power, Protestants were oppressive to both Catholics and other Protestant sects they feared(see Amish, Mennonite, Methodist, Quaker, Puritan and Baptist stories).